A simple question - what do you say?
I’m curious what sentiment is like after yet another major incident involving a Muslim member of our military killing fellow soldiers.
I personally believe Muslims should be allowed in the military, but also believe special checks and balances should be in place when dealing with them. What these special checks and balances should look like, I don’t know, but more needs to be done.
Some would call this discrimination – I call it protecting our soldiers from potential threats.
What say you?
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Tags: fort hood, fort hood shootings, ft. hood, islam, islam in the military, military, muslims in the military
This is not a very easy question.
While you ponder it, consider this:
A good, believing, devout Muslim accepts the notion that his first loyalty is to Allah and Muhammad and all that they stand for.
If that clashes with the civil duties that he is bound by in the non-Islamic country in which he lives or even is a citizen, then he must avoid situations that might lead to conflict.
Or he fights his host country in the name of Allah, as our major did.
No one put a gun to the head of that major and told him thaqt he must join the military.
He apparently did it for financial gains.
I put my 2 centsworth about his motives in my blog:
http://th3cow.wordpress.com
This is a sticky situation that doesn’t seem to have any easy answers. Nevertheless, I would like to point out that just as with a good, believing, devout Muslim, I would hope for any Christian serving in the military (which is an ethical question in and of itself) that his/her loyalty is to God and Jesus Christ as Lord…sometimes I wonder if that is truly the case just as I wonder sometimes if some (perhaps many) of the Christians living in the US allegiance to God is above their allegiance to country.
Grace and peace,
Rex
Thanks for the interesting link, Cow. Your post analyzing his motives basically sums up how I feel.
Rex – good points. I don’t personally have a problem with Christians being in the military since none of the soldiers converted in the New Testament were told to find a new career. I do agree that God is above country always, 100% of the time.
I do not believe it’s God’s will for Muslims (or anyone) to murder others, and do not believe it is either ethical or wise to train someone to kill who has bought into the “convert or die” philosophy.
Of course it’s not politically correct to say that. The discussion on Facebook is a lively one.
Not to argue too much but just because soldiers in the NT were not told to find a new career means that it is ethical for Christians to enlist in the military now. Remember slave owners we not told to give their slaves freedom in the NT either. I am not trying to argue that it is unethical for Christians to serve in the military. However, I do wish more churches would discuss the ethics of serving in the military. It seems right now that it is just assumed in most churches that serving in the military is always right, honorable, and noble. I don’t think it is as cut and dried, black and white, as the assumption. Even more troubling is the Christian parents I met a few years ago who were celebrating one of their children’s decision to enlist in the Army but were discouraging another one of their children from pursuing foreign missions (but this is an entire different issue).
If you ever get a chance to buy a copy of Lee C. Camp’s “Mere Discipleship: Radical Christianity in a Rebellious World”, I would highly recommend it to read. The book deals more with what it means to give exclusive allegiance to Jesus Christ as Lord and one of the practical issues that comes out of that Christological discussion is the question of a Christian’s relationship to his/her nationality, ethnicity, political ideology, etc…
Grace and peace,
Rex
I agree with you, Wes.
I am very interested in hearing what exactly a church should teach concerning joining/serving in the armed services.
I honestly haven’t ever heard any church address this issue. Then again I haven’t ever seen a church follow the pattern of disfellowshiping someone like in 1 Cor 5 either, so I guess it would be added to the long list of things we need to approach.
Would like to hear how that subject would go for you though K. Rex.
Seth,
The issue is not easy, due to its own complexity and the personal attachment that many have to it. For me personally, I do not believe it is automatically wrong to serve in the military (for we all serve some secular master in our employment who is called a boss, manager, supervisor, CEO, etc…). The question is one that we must all ask but is especially critical in military service. What happens when a persons duty requires them to violate their Christian confession (a pledge to live under the Lordship of Jesus Christ)?
The case can be made that militaries demand allegiance to the country/military above all other pledges of allegiance. This was clearly the case in Germany under the Nazi regime (that is what Deitrich Bonhoeffer argued). Despite claims otherwise, the case can be made that the American military requires the same absolute allegiance. Secondly, even if there is such thing as a “just war” that does not mean all war is just. Given the criterion of when war/violence is just in historical Christian thought, the Iraq war is a violation of just war. So should Christians in the military continue serving when such a war is shown to be immoral? Third, Jesus did teach his disciples to love their enemies. How does one love an enemy (in this case, a political enemy) when one is engaged in a campaign of violence against the enemy – either directly or by association and support?
These are just a sampling of the issues that must be considered. Adding to that is the entire issue of nationalism – a phenomenon that takes place when citizens of a country begin to identify the nation’s political goals and ideologies with the goals of God and thereby the national goals and ideologies are no longer questioned but accepted as being the will of God. I believe most Christians will have some honest patriotism, ethnicism, etc…and I don’t think that is wrong. Naitonalism, on the other hand, is heresy and sin. I am convinced that many Christians living in the US have become nationalistic and that is why it makes a conversation like this all the more difficult.
I have met many people serving in the military. First, I respect them whether I agree with them or not. They are serving something other than themselves which requires sacrifice – something always to be admired. I do pray for them because just as with the enemy, I do not wish for them to be harmed in any way but to return safely to their home and families. As for the men and women I have met serving in the military who were also Christian…I have no doubt that some of them would walk away from the military if they ever believed such a service was unjust and unethical. Others seem to have a blind allegiance.
As a Christian minister and leader, I believe God has redeemed us and desires for us to participate in his mission by living as his kingdom people. This means living a life that bears witness to the kingdom reality rather than the same old song and dance of this fallen world. That is what I want to help the church to do and to do that, I believe we must at least raise the critical question of how we relate to our nation and its political/military power rather than blindly assuming that the nation’s mission is the Christian mission.
From a pastoral perspective, rather than dealing with this issue head-on (i.e., a series of lessons based on this topic), I would rather preach and teach the good news of the Kingdom of God along with its mission and values. Rather than a direct confrontation on such a sensitive subject, faithful preaching and teaching of the good news will result in the hearers raising their own questions and then the real learning and transformation can begin. And believe me, preaching and teaching the good news still is very powerful.
Grace and peace,
Rex
P.S. Sorry for the long comment Wes.
No need to apologize – I don’t mind long comments.
I would, however, be careful labeling the Iraq War wholly unjust.
If I remember my history correctly, our country is the one that put Saddam Hussein into power. I don’t care to debate the rightness or wrongness of that decision – I’m not very informed about it to be honest.
But I do know a thing or two about what Hussein did as dictator. I was working in the media industry when we went to war. Part of my job included keeping my eyes opened to the news at all times in case something needed to be reported immediately (i.e. a terrorist attack, etc.).
I remember in that time the news coming out about Saddam’s treatment of the Iraqi people. The death squads, the systematic torture of those suspected to be challengers or defectors – stories of Saddam ordering families to be taken from their homes – for the wives of his enemies to be raped and sodomized with broken bottles in front of their husbands – people’s hands and feet being cut off – pregnant women being beaten to the point that their babies died – horrible, horrible things.
These things were happening, and they were being carried out by a man our country put into power. I feel that our nation’s leaders have a certain amount of responsiblity for making that end. After all, it was our country’s fault that he had the power to carry out those atrocities in the first place.
Everything I know about this man is negative – if the stories were made up, then I have no ground to stand on, but the mass graves, the countless testimonies of Iraqi people – this is convincing evidence to me.
Reading through the Old Testament we find that God punished nations through war when leadership such as this was in power. Often Israel was on the recieving end, but they were also often the ones carrying out the punishment.
I’m not sure that God has stopped punishing nations through war. In fact, I don’t believe He has and am not sure He’ll ever stop until all is complete.
There is always hurt on both sides when there is war, but I believe in my heart of hearts that the Iraqi people are better off being free from the ruthless dictator that we put there in the first place.
Just my two cents.
Wes,
My reasons for believing the Iraq war to be unjust was that it was a preemtive strike made by the US which goes against what has historically been regarded as just-war criterion among Christian thought. Further, whatever atrocities were being committed by Sadam Hussein (and there were many) that is not what motivated the US politicians (the decision makers) to war against Iraq. There are many dictators committing many acts of injustice…if stopping such acts of injustice is the motive for war, why just Iraq…what about China, North Korea, etc…?
I also know that there are many Christian thinkers who are much more conversant on the Christian ethics of just-war who believe that the Iraq war was unjust. Me personally, I do not believe in the just-war theory as a Christian. As a Christian, I believe we are called to live as Jesus did and that means in part, refusing to inflict vengence and violence against our enemies. However, I also understand that the “just-war” theory is a credible alternative with credible arguments and therefore I am willing to allow room for Christians to believe/participate in and support a just-war. I simply wish that Christians who hold on to the just-war theory would start doing more to judicate what is a just-war and then refuse to support (vocally and beyond) wars/conflicts deemed to be unjust…rather than just acting as if whatever the goverment decides to do is morally right.
Any ways…despite my views, I do pray on this Vetren’s Day that all of the soldiers for this country and all other nations would come home safe, recieve the proper care they need to physically and psychologically survive in a non-military life, and learn that there is One who is redeeming us all from this fallen world where violence and hatred is unfortunately all too common.
Grace and peace,
Rex
Rex,
Sorry to get back to this so late, but I was away in Phoenix, AZ for a week and am just now getting around to responding.
I can see the need to discuss among Christians the issues of supporting/participating in any war situation.
Just because I was not a fly on the wall to know if the reasons given to us as soldiers was the actual reasons we went to war, but none the less I volunteered and signed the dotted line to serve our country and my family.
Here are my feelings about Christians in the War on Terror:
Saddam…led what was possibly the richest country in the world. The way he chose to deal out the money was 1/3 to himself, 1/6 to each son(2) and his wife(1), and 1/6 back into his country. This is how he was able to try and build Palaces in every major city in the country.
When we raided one of his son’s palaces, we quickly realized that he never wore the same thing twice(not going into the exact details because that would take sooo many pages).
Saddam allowed Iraqi’s 2 channels to watch. One only showed movies which Saddam starred in, and the other was a 20 hr per day reality show of Saddam and the other 4 hrs was news from a station in which Saddam owned. If you were found to have a satellite in which you could watch things that informed you about the rest of the world and how things could be, you were sought out and killed.
His sons’ would throw parties each month in which the would order servants to find 30 virgins and bring them to the party. There they would rape these women and then go and slaughter their families. This did 2 things to these women:(1) If you were not a virgin you would never get married & (2) The family is the only thing these women would have to rely on and with them dead she would have to turn to the streets. The only job the women would ever be allowed to get would be as prostitutes.
We took out Saddam, his sons’, and his army. While we were there we opened 33 schools in Baghdad alone in which women were allowed to work as teachers. Children are now able to go to school free and get an education so that they don’t grow up the same way their parents did which was ignorant of the world and as slaves to Saddam as a result.
As for the role of Christians over there. I was able to help get a bible study going that grew from 8 to 127 in a year. This bible study included people from other countries, not just soldiers. We baptized several who were not soldiers.
While there Christian Churches came under attack and were being bombed during service times. We were able to step in and stop this from happening.
As for Christians giving allegiance to something other than God:
I can see what you are saying. I do believe that some people fall into doing just that, however, the Christians that I served with would not have been in that category of people. Not saying that some don’t though.
Duty, Honor, Country is the slogan of the armed services. Country is the final part of that, but some do make it the top priority. The duty is to God & your country, God being first. Now that can lead some people to think that this is God’s work, but that is truthfully an ignorant(lack of knowledge) thought. See, I think that is where the issue lies. If Christians are falling into Nationalism, it is due to ignorance. So the idea of preaching the good news of the Kingdom of God would be the correct approach. I served because I would like to see this country remain a free country where someday my kids can grow up to become all things that God has in store for them. I want people to be able to worship without fear of persecution. I realize we were never guaranteed safety. As a matter of fact I believe that the Cross is our lifeline and that in the Cross we realize that persecution is inevitable. However, those Christians who are still on the milk will never come to know this if they do not have a safe environment to learn. Then someday they will grow in knowledge and in truth and begin feeding on the meat.
This war has opened up a country to the love of Christ. Sounds weird, but Iraqis are now starting to understand their freedom to worship something other than Islam. Some of those Christians who have taken advantage of that safe place to worship and are now feeding on the meat will walk through that open door to see this land as a mission effort and be called to this place. They will have nothing to hold them back, because soldiers have put their life on the line to make that place a free country as well. Whether they realize this is what they were doing is a far cry, but it has happened.
I don’t believe that God called me to kill my enemy, but I do believe that He called me into the military, and in doing so He knew that I would end up in the middle of Baghdad with a loaded weapon.
Rex, preach away! I mean that with all of my heart! I do not want any person, pre-Christian or Christian, to ever be ignorant of any decision they ever make concerning their life or the lives of others. I too strive to deliver the good news of the Kingdom of God, and I have seen the power that moves through hearts as a result.
He who has ears to hear, let them hear!
I appreciate your comments, your honesty, and your prayers. I just hope that you realize that some Christians serving in our military fight each day to keep God first. I myself, had to fight sometimes to go worship with the church family on Wed nights. It is still against military regulation to prevent someone time to worship on Sundays, so God is still given a place(though a small one) in the Armed Services.